Potential New Weave

moaatt

Established Member
Established Member
Hello everyone, I was playing around with the Elfin weave last night and I ended up making a sheeted variant of it. I have spent time looking through weave documentation for a similar weave however I have not found one yet. I was wondering if this is a new idea and if so, does it count as a new weave? I would very much appreciate your input. I have also attached images to help, sorry for the low quality I am still working on getting better at taking pictures of chainmail.

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chainmaillers.com

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From the pictures, this is what I would consider to be a mirrored band form of an Elfin transformation and not a new weave.

Mirrored because of the central reflection point, band form because it is two tethered chains, & transformation because Elfin has alternating layering of ring quartets (which is not present here).
 

moaatt

Established Member
Established Member
Thank you for looking at it and providing your notes. I have a few questions:

1. Are transformations recorded in the Maillepedia and if so how?
2. What is the difference between a band and a sheet?
a) This pattern could be made to be any arbitrary dimensions by repeating it. I just posted a small piece as I am a bit low on the rings I used to make it.
3. I made this by adding two additional lines of elfin on a starting base strand. Due to this I saw this as three joined chains. If possible could you explain how this is classified as two tethered chains?
4. Would the classification change if the orientation of the rings highlighted red in the attached image to be the opposite of the ones highlighted in blue in the image?
 

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chainmaillers.com

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1. Are transformations recorded in the Maillepedia and if so how?
As our own classification system has been getting more fleshed out, we've been marking some of the newer entries as "Transformations". Many of the older weaves that would be considered transformations have still not been marked as such. Currently transformations are listed in the Maillepedia as a "Weave Class". They can be found by using the Maillepedia "Filter". Currently, there are 8 tentative transformation types (tentative as the classification system is still a work in progress).
2. What is the difference between a band and a sheet?
This one is a bit harder to answer as for many, it's more of a personal choice. Weaves have multiple possible forms, of which chain, band, & sheet are the three primary possibilities. Some feel that chains are parts of sheets while our classification system is based upon bands and sheets being expansions of chains (you can't have cloth without threads ;) ).
3. I made this by adding two additional lines of elfin on a starting base strand. Due to this I saw this as three joined chains. If possible could you explain how this is classified as two tethered chains?
When deconstructing weaves, a single ring can't be part of more than one element. If you take it away to be part of one chain, it can no longer be considered part of another chain. It's a sympathetic part of additional chain forms that can be found in the weave. This goes deeper into CCT (Cellular Chainmaille Theory - our classification system). Here's a few renders to try and explain things.

This is what we would consider a base cell from elfin (tethers are not included in base cells)
Base Cell.jpg
Now, if we add tethers and extend that, we get, what we'll call, Not Elfin chain.
Not Elfin chain.jpg
The reason we're calling this Not Elfin is because in Elfin, you have an alternating of the layering present in the base cells. It will take 2 base cells to make up a weave cell of Elfin. Notice that in the red, the top red is on top, but in the blue, the bottom blue is on top.
Elfin weave cell.jpg
When that weave cell is translated (copied and moved) we get Elfin chain
Elfin chain.jpg
What you did in your image is essentially taking two mirrored Not Elfin chains
Not Elfin band components.jpg
and then tethering them together with the part of elfin/not elfin that is the same (this creates a sympathetic chain, which merely gives the appearance of an additional chain).
Not Elfin band.jpg
Now, if we were to remove the sympathetic chain from the middle of the band, then we would be left with this (which is neither Elfin or Not Elfin)
remove middle.jpg
4. Would the classification change if the orientation of the rings highlighted red in the attached image to be the opposite of the ones highlighted in blue in the image?
Changing the red rings in your image would be considered a grain transformation, so it wouldn't change the classification.
Not Elfin band (grain transformation).jpg
Some initial information about (what we're now calling) grains can be found in our article on Precursors. (Lots of things have changed since that article was initially written, but it hasn't been updated yet).

Hopefully that answers your questions without adding more confusion. If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask. :D BTW, I know that the yellow rings aren't in the same exact spot that they are in your image, that was on purpose to make rendering it easier. It doesn't have any effect on classification in this case.
 

moaatt

Established Member
Established Member
Thank you very much for your detailed response I found it very helpful.

As our own classification system has been getting more fleshed out, we've been marking some of the newer entries as "Transformations". Many of the older weaves that would be considered transformations have still not been marked as such. Currently transformations are listed in the Maillepedia as a "Weave Class". They can be found by using the Maillepedia "Filter". Currently, there are 8 tentative transformation types (tentative as the classification system is still a work in progress).
I may be mistaken, but from what I understand of your reply, this could qualify as a 'Transformation' of the Elfin weave. Please let me know if I've misunderstood. If I am not mistaken what additional steps would be necessary to submit this to the Maillepedia?
This one is a bit harder to answer as for many, it's more of a personal choice. Weaves have multiple possible forms, of which chain, band, & sheet are the three primary possibilities. Some feel that chains are parts of sheets while our classification system is based upon bands and sheets being expansions of chains (you can't have cloth without threads ;) ).
Thank you for your answer this is quite interesting. For the purposes of the Maillepedia what are the current decision rules? Or is it just go with whatever feels most appropriate?
When deconstructing weaves, a single ring can't be part of more than one element. If you take it away to be part of one chain, it can no longer be considered part of another chain. It's a sympathetic part of additional chain forms that can be found in the weave. This goes deeper into CCT (Cellular Chainmaille Theory - our classification system). Here's a few renders to try and explain things.
Thank you very much for the explanation I found it quite helpful. I will definitely be looking more into CCT please let me know if there are any resources you recommend. Additionally if you could look over my understanding of the following terms and let me know if I got them correct I would greatly appreciate it.
  • Base Cell: The largest set of rings in the weave that is repeated with geometric translations and rotations.
  • Weave Cell: The smallest set of rings that are repeated to form the weave pattern.
  • Chain: A sequence of Weave Cells linked in a single parallel line.
  • Tether(s): The rings added to the Base Cell(s) to connect them and form a Weave Cell.
  • Sympathetic Chain: A set of rings added between two existing Chains at a perpendicular angle to the line of continuation of the Chain. It is only a Sympathetic Chain if the Chain is the same type as the others if you include rings from its adjacent Chains.

The reason we're calling this Not Elfin is because in Elfin, you have an alternating of the layering present in the base cells. It will take 2 base cells to make up a weave cell of Elfin. Notice that in the red, the top red is on top, but in the blue, the bottom blue is on top.
Thank you for this information. I was not aware this was part of the definition of elfin. I was previously under the opinion that this was a random element.
Changing the red rings in your image would be considered a grain transformation, so it wouldn't change the classification.
Thank you very much for the information. Also the render you made with the alternating grains is what intended when I mentioned the change.
 

chainmaillers.com

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I may be mistaken, but from what I understand of your reply, this could qualify as a 'Transformation' of the Elfin weave. Please let me know if I've misunderstood. If I am not mistaken what additional steps would be necessary to submit this to the Maillepedia?
I think I already said I consider it a transformation of elfin ;)
I would consider to be a mirrored band form of an Elfin transformation
As for submitting it, you can already consider it submitted. :D

For the purposes of the Maillepedia what are the current decision rules?
The loosely applied rule of thumb currently in use is that 1- 2 full expansions are considered a "band", 3 (or more) full expansions would be a sheet. There are some exceptions to this (especially with older entries).
I will definitely be looking more into CCT please let me know if there are any resources you recommend.
Unfortunately, it's still a work in progress and as such, I haven't released anything "official" about it. There may be some primers about it in the future. Currently, I think I'm up to about the 4th revision of things I've written up about it.
Additionally if you could look over my understanding of the following terms and let me know if I got them correct I would greatly appreciate it.
On most of them, I would say that you have the gist of it, but there are some changes (in red) I would make to the wording. (changes are tentative)
  • Base Cell: The largest set of rings in the weave that is repeated with geometric translations and rotations. (Still working on figuring this out)
  • Weave Cell: The smallest set of rings that are repeated to form the weave pattern. (The smallest set of rings that contain the entirety of the weave pattern)
  • Chain: A sequence of Weave Cells linked in a single parallel line. (Extension of connected cells along a single axis)
  • Tether(s): The rings added to the Base Cell(s) to connect them and form a Weave Cell. (Rings used to connect separate elements)
  • Sympathetic Chain: A set of rings added between two existing Chains at a perpendicular angle to the line of continuation of the Chain. It is only a Sympathetic Chain if the Chain is the same type as the others if you include rings from its adjacent Chains. (A chain that exists only as a result of connections made between elements)
I was not aware this was part of the definition of elfin.
Not everyone would agree it was. CCT however does. ;)
I was previously under the opinion that this was a random element.
Nothing in chainmaille is really random. While the initial way of reaching it may have been random, the number of possible elements are finite.
 

moaatt

Established Member
Established Member
I think I already said I consider it a transformation of elfin ;)
Sorry about that mistake.
As for submitting it, you can already consider it submitted. :D
Thank you I am very much looking forward to seeing it in the Maillepedia. What will it be named so I can keep an eye out for it?
The loosely applied rule of thumb currently in use is that 1- 2 full expansions are considered a "band", 3 (or more) full expansions would be a sheet. There are some exceptions to this (especially with older entries).
Thank you for the information. Out of curiosity due to the fact that "sheet" is usually and extension of "band" is there a process to chose which version gets a Maillepedia entry or do both version get one?
Unfortunately, it's still a work in progress and as such, I haven't released anything "official" about it. There may be some primers about it in the future. Currently, I think I'm up to about the 4th revision of things I've written up about it.
I understand writing a standard is quite hard work. I very much look forward to when it is published in any form.
On most of them, I would say that you have the gist of it, but there are some changes (in red) I would make to the wording. (changes are tentative)
Thank you for taking the time to review them it is very helpful. I do have one question about your revised definitions; when you use the term element(in Tethers/Sympathetic Chain) is that being used to to refer to Base Cells?
Not everyone would agree it was. CCT however does. ;)
That is fair, this is an interesting difference to note. Though given how it doesn't stay constant in the chain(at least for me) I am not sure if it is a very practical difference.

Nothing in chainmaille is really random. While the initial way of reaching it may have been random, the number of possible elements are finite.
It is true that is it technically not random, however unless there is a limit to the number or rings in an element I have strong doubts that the number of possible elements is finite, or even countably infinite for that matter.
 

chainmaillers.com

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Sorry about that mistake.
Nothing to be sorry about :D
What will it be named so I can keep an eye out for it?
Probably something along the lines of Elfin (Mirrored), but it will have the
1684606963830.png
prefix.
is there a process to chose which version gets a Maillepedia entry or do both version get one?
No "official" process per se, sometimes they both get one, sometimes they don't. In most cases, straight expansions will not, but grain transformations might.
when you use the term element(in Tethers/Sympathetic Chain) is that being used to to refer to Base Cells?
"Element" is kind of a catch all term and what it's referring to may change depending on the context. Base cells, weave cells, chains, etc. can all be considered elements.
Though given how it doesn't stay constant in the chain(at least for me) I am not sure if it is a very practical difference.
With Elfin, it may not be a practical difference, but when you start adding AR locking into the equation, it becomes a big issue. There are multiple weaves out there that many consider different weaves, and they are different, but mainly because of an AR lock or grain transformation. When dealing with both of those we try to stick with the actual described and/or pictured configuration as the "default".
It is true that is it technically not random, however unless there is a limit to the number or rings in an element I have strong doubts that the number of possible elements is finite, or even countably infinite for that matter.
This is where CCT goes against the commonly held consensus and is about as clear as mud to explain. What I've found while working on CCT is that anything after 3 elements (rings, cells, chains, etc.) can be broken down into repetitions (layering, mirroring) of a grouping of rings and/or a grouping of cells, and their connections.
 

Karpeth

Contributing Member
Contributing Member
I would say there’s provably infinite interactions possible - the distinction needs to be made between meaningful and not meaningful changes.

Furyhermore, looking at the oldest images of elfin, the AR effect between elfin and not elfin seems not be regarded as meaningful to distinguish.

Now back to #tearsofthekingdom.
 

moaatt

Established Member
Established Member
Probably something along the lines of Elfin (Mirrored), but it will have the
1684606963830.png
prefix.
Thank you I will keep an eye out for it. Approximately how long might it be until it is in the Maillepedia(I am excited to actually be contributing)?
No "official" process per se, sometimes they both get one, sometimes they don't. In most cases, straight expansions will not, but grain transformations might.
I see thank you for the clarification.
"Element" is kind of a catch all term and what it's referring to may change depending on the context. Base cells, weave cells, chains, etc. can all be considered elements.
Ok, I see that makes sense.
With Elfin, it may not be a practical difference, but when you start adding AR locking into the equation, it becomes a big issue. There are multiple weaves out there that many consider different weaves, and they are different, but mainly because of an AR lock or grain transformation. When dealing with both of those we try to stick with the actual described and/or pictured configuration as the "default".
Ok, I see where this starts to become important.
This is where CCT goes against the commonly held consensus and is about as clear as mud to explain. What I've found while working on CCT is that anything after 3 elements (rings, cells, chains, etc.) can be broken down into repetitions (layering, mirroring) of a grouping of rings and/or a grouping of cells, and their connections.
While this will likely hold true for any reasonable pattern, if one pushes the limits of CCT(for the academic fun of it perhaps) you can usually artificially create something.
For example if we use the color coding for cells from the message above where 0 is a red cell and 1 is a blue cell we can create a an arbitrary number of sequences of 0 and 1(the different cells) that cannot be expressed as a multiple of any smaller repetition(make it a prime number length and have at least a single 0 and 1). With this you could create an infinite number of unique(to CCT) elfin grain transformations. I do want to clarify I still like CCT I just think this is an interesting consequence, however human moderation would keep this in check.
 

moaatt

Established Member
Established Member
I would say there’s provably infinite interactions possible - the distinction needs to be made between meaningful and not meaningful changes.
This would depend on how the interactions are recorded, and potentially how many rings you can use. For example if you have just two rings there is only one way to have them joined however if you care about angle and other factors then it could start to get larger depending on how it is recorded.
Furyhermore, looking at the oldest images of elfin, the AR effect between elfin and not elfin seems not be regarded as meaningful to distinguish.
Out of curiosity are you looking at sources other than M.A.I.L. for these images?
Now back to #tearsofthekingdom.
Have fun.
 

chainmaillers.com

Administrator
Staff member
Approximately how long might it be until it is in the Maillepedia(I am excited to actually be contributing)?
One of the next few updates, but they're currently on hold as I'm working on some RL stuff at the moment which is utilizing my free time :(

I see thank you for the clarification.
You're welcome :)
For example if we use the color coding for cells from the message above where 0 is a red cell and 1 is a blue cell we can create a an arbitrary number of sequences of 0 and 1(the different cells) that cannot be expressed as a multiple of any smaller repetition(make it a prime number length and have at least a single 0 and 1). With this you could create an infinite number of unique(to CCT) elfin grain transformations.
This is true and it's why, at the base of it, CCT is all about 1's, 2's, & 3's. Angles don't matter as those are based upon cellular connections and appropriate AR's. 2 connected rings are 2 connected rings regardless of their angles. This is why CCT considers 2 connected rings the "root cell", "maille" cannot exist without it and is limited by it. While in your example there can be an infinite number of grain transformations (and there can), they're still just transformations of a weave and not a weave themselves.
 

moaatt

Established Member
Established Member
One of the next few updates, but they're currently on hold as I'm working on some RL stuff at the moment which is utilizing my free time :(
I hope things go well for you IRL and you are able to get more free time.
This is true and it's why, at the base of it, CCT is all about 1's, 2's, & 3's. Angles don't matter as those are based upon cellular connections and appropriate AR's. 2 connected rings are 2 connected rings regardless of their angles. This is why CCT considers 2 connected rings the "root cell", "maille" cannot exist without it and is limited by it. While in your example there can be an infinite number of grain transformations (and there can), they're still just transformations of a weave and not a weave themselves.

Ok, that makes sense thank you. Hopefully as CCT is formalized and more widely released it will become more clear.
 

moaatt

Established Member
Established Member
One of the next few updates, but they're currently on hold as I'm working on some RL stuff at the moment which is utilizing my free time :(
Good evening, I hope things are going better for you now. I have keeping an eye on the recently released weaves and I was wondering if I missed seeing the elfin band or if its status as a weave has been reconsidered. If you could let me know I would greatly appreciate it.
 

chainmaillers.com

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Staff member
Good evening, I hope things are going better for you now. I have keeping an eye on the recently released weaves and I was wondering if I missed seeing the elfin band or if its status as a weave has been reconsidered. If you could let me know I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks, still busy, but getting there. The status of Elfin band has not been reconsidered and it will still be added to the maillepedia. As a side note, it's not a weave in and of itself but a different form of an existing weave, in this case one of the possible band forms. :D
 

moaatt

Established Member
Established Member
Thanks, still busy, but getting there. The status of Elfin band has not been reconsidered and it will still be added to the maillepedia. As a side note, it's not a weave in and of itself but a different form of an existing weave, in this case one of the possible band forms. :D
Thank you very much for the update and clarification.
 
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